Shocking Demographics of The Oil Drum Revealed!!
Sharon March 13th, 2009
Ok, I know you are going to be stunned and shaken by this news.
Apparently, readers of The Oil Drum are overwhelmingly men. Even more shockingly, they are overwhelming white, middle aged and middle-to-upper middle class. Lots of them are engineers. Lots more are scientists.
Woah. Let’s take a minute to recover from this news. You mean the guys with all the graphs are actually talking mostly to other guys with graphs? Gee, I’d never have guessed.
Now don’t get me wrong, I actually think that TOD is one of the best sites on the net. I don’t write for a lot of other sites – I don’t have time and energy for it. I have written for TOD, because I think what they do is truly important. I am enormously grateful to those guys with graphs and penises for the work they do in sorting through an enormous amount of difficult data.
That said, however, I think that while there are an enormous number of talented women now writing and working on Peak Oil and Depletion issues in one form or another, with a few exceptions (thanks to Leanan, Gail the Actuary and TOD alum Stoneleigh) they simply aren’t doing their work over at TOD.
Some of this is the fact that women study engineering and the sciences at much lower rates than men, and that the material on TOD tends towards the technical. Some of it is that the level of TOD discussion favors the initiated and one with some experience in the area – and while the number of PO aware women has boomed recently, a lot of them may not have been around long enough to feel comfortable on such a highly technical site. Some of it is that a lot of us women (and plenty of men) are much more interested in what to do next, once we’re convinced, than in stacking up data that reinforces our older conclusions.
But some of it is the culture of TOD. A long time ago, I wrote about going ASPO (which is not at all the same as TOD, but there’s some heavy overlap) and watching a presenter make a joke about the difference between “spending” and “investing” – he said that spending was when his wife went shopping, and spent his money on stuff that wasn’t of any real value. Investing was when he bought his wife gold jewelry, because he was going to get a return on his money from her…. ha ha ha. And the guys (10-1) all laughed, because, after all, it was just us guys here.
Now I later heard that the guy who said it kind of regretted making that joke, and “offending” me. In fact, I wasn’t so much offended (the assumption that my reaction to this kind of stupidity must be “offense” is actually kind of demeaning in itself – the “oh, the humorless women are annoyed again) bit, as struck by how well this illustrated the underlying assumptions of the people at the ASPO conference. What were they?
1. We’re all guys here, or mostly.
2. We’ll all think jokes about women being whores are funny, because we’re all guys here. And have you seen my fishing pictures?
3. The wives do like to shop, and spend our hard earned money, don’t they. They wouldn’t be interested in this hard stuff, and we shouldn’t bother explaining it to them – we should focus on talking to *each other* Meanwhile, they can shop.
Now this was one joke three years ago, but I still think it is so perfectly indicative of the boy culture that permeates the technical end of the peak oil movement. And that culture is well…alienating to people. Now if your goal is simply to talk to other upper middle class white engineers, that’s fine. But if your goal is popular attention, you might want to think about talking to other people.
When I was asked to write _Depletion and Abundance_ it was because there was no single book about peak oil by a woman, who wrote for a more diverse audience. And I’ve watched with absolute delight as the body of engaged, smart, funny, angry, brilliant PO and Depletion aware women grew and broadened – I read Kathy Harrison and Peak Oil Hausfrau, Chile, Crunchy Chicken and the rest with absolute delight. Meanwhile, the women who preceeded me are out there too – Carolyn Baker has a new book, and Amanda Kovattna, among others, continues to write brilliant and thoughtful stuff. But not, unfortunately, at TOD for the most part.
Personally, I’d love to see more women writing and commenting at TOD. I know why women don’t, and the downsides, but the reality is that it is a site that gets more mainstream media attention than any other, and one whose culture really could stand more people who do not start from the same assumptions. And I’m hopeful that this will occur – TOD’s new “Campfire” series focuses on what to do about the future – a lot of the most original work on that subject is coming from women, and from men who don’t fit the model. The two groups have a great deal to learn from one another, particularly as we move into a world where the primary tools for addressing PO and its related issues are not mathematical models, but ethical ones. The question is no longer “when” (the answer being variations on “right soon now”), but “where do we go from here.” And the best answers to this broad question come from a broad and democratic cross section of the populace.
The difference between the world of PO that I entered into public interaction with in 2003 and the present is huge. The culture keeps getting more accessible and interesting, complex and diverse. I’m delighted by that. And I hope that some of you will make the effort to contribute (whether posts or comments) at TOD, so that the next survey results really do shock and awe 
.
Sharon
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- Comments(72)
The women may not be at TOD, but…
This week’s Radio Ecoshock show (hosted by TOD reader Alex Smith) featured TOD contributor Jason Bradford who recommended you and your blog to all of Alex’s listeners.
And I (another TOD reader) am always recommending your blog and book to anyone who will listen.
So it’s not all bad.
Phil
My first exposure to The Oil Drum was through an article by Gail the Actuary, so my orientation was not quite so male dominated. But, I do see your point, Sharon. It is primarily another good old boys network happening at the web site.
Maybe things will change as it becomes harder and harder to go shopping as a leisure activity.
TOD is not alone in its male audience — I’ve noticed that women rarely comment on most of the blogs dealing with peak oil and climate change. I may be really sexist here, but it seems to me that men are more interested in proving their point while women are more pragmatic — “okay, I got it. So what we need to do is . . . ” We need both types of blogs, those that inform and those that lead us to the next step — TOD and Casaubon’s Book!
TOD is where I really discovered the concept of Peak Oil in one of its prior versions around 2004 some time.
However, I’ve stopped reading it consistently recently for a number of reasons.
First, I don’t feel like I’m getting much new information from the site.
Second, I get tired of some of the more extreme doomer porn some folks post in comments (particularly in Drumbeat).
Third, I’m personally trying to focus on what I need to be doing, and I get far more from sites like this one than I do from the Oil Drum.
Fourth, I get tired of the amount of (mostly male) breast-beating and arguing that goes on. I’m more interested in looking at approaches to dealing with our predicament, and potential scenarios, rather than trying to justify one scenario over others.
Michael
What!? And here I thought the majority of readers were homosexual, Jewish male herbalists. Oy!
No, really, I think you hit the nail on the head that the discussion on TOD oftentimes amounts to data stacking competitions and comparing who’s got a bigger graph. To many, that can be interesting in and of itself, but as the conversation turns from “no, really, it’s peak oil! let me show you” to “well, duh, now what do we do about it”, you won’t see as much of the data porn trying to convince people of the whys and whens, but on the hows. And, that’s what you are way ahead of the game doing.
I, honestly, haven’t been visiting TOD site very frequently because the conversation is so dry and technical. But, I best go check out the new Campfire series and toast my buns.
As a 20-something white engineer who regularly reads your blog (and has maybe visited TOD once), I can say that many of the middle-aged white engineers I work with do not believe in peak oil or global warming.
So … while sites like TOD should certainly be trying to expand their demographic reach, I’d say they still have a long way to go even among the group they most appeal to.
Echoing what others have said, I don’t go to TOD nearly as often as I used to because I’m not longer very interested in the latest chart unless it comes with a discussion of next steps.
Either a major crisis will occur in my lifetime, or it won’t. If it won’t, then it’s business as usual. Nothing for me to do except keep on keeping on. If a major lifestyle change is in order, then there are practical things I need to be doing to prepare, and those things are centered around becoming more self-sufficient and developing my skill at growing and preserving food, fixing things with hand tools, etc. There are only so many hours in a day, and looking at yet another graph of outputs from Cantarell isn’t going to help me with that.
Let me also add that most of the people whose PO-opinions are heard are American or at least native English speakers (UK, Australia) with some (few) Europeans added to the mix.
Where are the PO-aware Asians, South Americans and Africans? I’d like to hear their perspectives.
And FYI & as a discriminated (?) Swede, my text on “ASCII imperialism” just hit the street in the edited book “Standards and their stories”
I am a middle grades math & science teacher. Most of the math & science (and history for that matter) teachers I know in the middle/uppergrades in my area are men. Women tend to dominate in elementary school & language arts fields in the upper grades.
My point being, they hardly took me serious at first. When I proved how “smart” I am to them, they were almost shocked that a woman could be so very smart in their field. They highly respect me now and I joke I’m part of “the boys club”….I really like these men I teach with, but sometimes you just have to prove yourself.
Not fair, but the way it goes and well, do you fight it or do you just do it and prove you’re worth your salt?
“Oh Gender Gender Gender,
I made you out of clay…”
–God
Yeah, I hate that type of crap where one gender takes the other one for granted and says stupid things. Too much of that goes on…
BTW/FWIW, I did a blogpost last night that ended with a toast to you:
http://poetrypoliticscollapse.blogspot.com/2009/03/money-material-objects-i-could-use.html
So (as you’re no doubt aware, but it’s probably nice to be reminded), there are men out there who not only send you respect, but can be found cheerfully explaining to other people why they should, too. I hope you had a Simcha Purim! We carried on foolishly and had a general good time.
Jamey Adam Hecht, PhD
When I first became Peak Oil aware, my first thoughts was how do I feed my family, how can I help my children navigate an uncertain future. TOD might have provided some of the data to support my learning about PO; but it is sights such as yours that have spurned me to action.
Very interesting. I started a post about this very subject just last week, but I have never finished it. I was a little worried about sparking gender controversy so I thought I’d keep that particular observation to myself.
However, I agree. I have noticed that female involvement has tended to be, thankfully (!), directed to preparation and male involvement tending to be directed at incessant technical analysis. Looking back at patriarchal societies and much further back to matriarchal societies…I’d say we have haven’t changed a whole lot in terms of that particular gender trait.
In regards to boyisms in the PO movement, it is true…boyisms exist in all sorts of different male-oriented groupings. As do “girlisms” in girl-oriented groupings. Working as a light/sound technician for many different presentations, I can attest to the fact that these sorts of public jokes come up in both groupings. On one hand, I find it distressing in both situations, but on the other hand I think we modern humans could stand to be a little less sensitive in some ways and a lot more sensitive in others.
I am reminded of footage I have seen of village women in the forests of South America, working away at some group tasks while offhandedly joking among themselves about the length of penises of various male tribe members. Now this is a fairly egalitarian, sustainable kind of society that melds intricately into the natural world. Yet there they were, jokingly reveling in some gender stereotyping. They were comfortable in the differences between men and women, but aware of the interdependence between genders. If there was gender inequality, it was not evident.
I think we could learn a lot from their example.
Thanks for the article!!
I first truly woke up to Peak Oil in 2007. Among the sites I quickly discovered and ate up was TOD. But now I also don’t read TOD very much anymore. My reasons are similar to those stated by “Whereaway,” with a few additions. First, some of the commenters and even some of the senior hands tend to insult anyone with a worldview that differs significantly from theirs, even if such people agree with the TOD regulars on the facts of Peak Oil and climate change. Some of their sharpest attacks are reserved for those who express some kind of religious faith. My feeling, however, is that Peak Oil and climate change are predicaments whose resolution will require the cooperation of all members of society. Peak Oil and climate change are already very difficult concepts for most people to grasp. If those who warn of these threats abandon winning persuasion and resort to insulting their potential audience because of issues not related to Peak Oil or climate change, they don’t stand much chance of persuading people to believe them. (Hopefully Nate Hagens will read this!)
But this insulting attitude is merely a subset of a larger problem – namely, that the TOD people have become a peculiar version of “Linux Snobs.” Linux is an operating system that was supposed to take the world by storm because it is better and more stable than Microsoft Windows, yet it hasn’t quite taken off as many had hoped. The reason is that until recently, Microsoft was easier for most people to use, because they were familiar with it, whereas there was a rather stiff learning curve for Linux. And there were Linux experts and developers who not only insulted anyone who asked basic “How do I use this??!” questions, but who actually seemed to want to keep Linux from ever being easy to use. Some of the Peak Oilers at TOD seem to want a society that largely doesn’t “get” the issues we are now facing, a society that is bound and determined to collapse, so they – the few who do “get” it – can bust out their survival skills and the huge amount of gear they’ve amassed and live out their long-awaited, middle-aged fantasy adventures while everyone else dies.
I am starting to get really tired of this sort of attitude. I respect people like Dmitri Orlov and others with a similar point of view, yet I don’t want to live in the sort of world they are envisioning – a world of collapsed societies and feral people. I know we will all have to live on less – I “get” that part. I also know that consumerism is evil. What I am interested in is hearing from people with ideas for how I can help my neighborhood – my street – adapt to the challenges of economic and resource collapse.
Anyway, I don’t write for TOD and am not interested in starting. But I do appreciate the efforts of people like Gail Tverberg and Jason Bradford. I think of Jason’s efforts and his “Reality Report” radio show as a model of gracious outreach.
I see your point, and I agree, but is it necessarily an “all bad” phenomenon? American WASP males are still major decision makers and are more apt to listen to each other… so first we change this then tackle PO? Or the other way around?
I also wonder where the non-American voices are.
Interesting observations and nice to know that I’m not alone in noticing the assumptions and stereotyping (how many references to “trophy wives” do we really need?). My philosophy has been that it’s usually not worth the effort to get sidetracked in those sorts of discussions but that I’ll only participate actively if there’s an opportunity for true engagement. Otherwise, there’s only the entertainment value left after the learning and new information has expired.
TOD’s value for me has been getting me to shift my expectations re BAU and beginning to embrace strategies like WT’s ELP. I enjoy a bit of system analysis as much as the next person but I like to balance that with implementation ideas as well. That’s probably why I’ve got such a grab-bag mix of sites in my feeds list.
Hmm- this was an interesting read. Unfortunately it is just another example of how gender stereotyping and inequality (re: women being type-casted into one gendered career path and men another- math vs language) still exist.
From a feminist perspective this is very interesting, and I can see that sociological and feminist analyses of these discussions can be often left to the side- as they are traditionally considered the “softer” sciences. Just this consideration is cultural, science itself does not determine our gender stereotyping- we do.
One interesting point I’d like to offer- bell hooks. She wrote extensively on the topic of patriarchy being linked to consumerism and capitalism- they are not different they are the same. Her point: exploitation of women (i.e. still getting 70% of the male dollar, devalued gendered careers.. blah blah) isn’t intrinsic to “men”, but more linked to a culture of exploitation in general. So type casting our societies perspectives of what is traditionally considered “female” behaviours and “male” behaviours (i.e. communal vs combative) is counter-productive. Seeing ourselves as individuals with valid characteristics and strengths is a nice alternative.
So- although I think this post was valid in pointing out discrepancies, participating in the outdated, 1950′s discourse of explaining it away isn’t helpful either.
Regarding the gender stereotyping – I really don’t know how I fit in since I’m a white, agnostic, upper-middle class engineer (computer science) who is in no way a trophy wife in that I’ve always made more than my husband, I hate shopping and if my husband ever bought me flowers or jewelry he’d know he was in big trouble. We have more important things to spend our money on. I’ve also always been the lone female in a sea of white male engineers (at university and at work) and have no trouble exerting my authority (I suppose that would be the “combative” behavior) at work.
Yet, when dealing with these sorts of issues like Peak Oil, I definitely take on the more traditional “female” behaviors perhaps because it hits me more on the home sphere rather than a work one. So, I definitely don’t think it’s an all or nothing, people tend to fall within certain lines under different circumstances. Perhaps it’s the culture of work that make people conform or act a certain way and the culture of home that do the same.
Or maybe it has something to do with that beard I’ve started growing out. It’s a little patchy now, but I hope it will fill in soon.
I quit reading TODboth because of the ‘data competiotions’, when what I really wanted to know about was what do we do now? And because of the extreme doomer ideas on the site. The idea of PO =’we all die’ has never sat well withme. Also, I dislike having only or mostly white males in the conversation. That’s why when I wrote my post PO/post collapse story I deliberately included many other different chracters.
P.S. If this comment is wacky, it’s because something is wrong with the comment screen tonight.
I have been a fairly regular reader at TOD for several years and I took part in that survey. (I hope Nate’s schedule does allows him to run another version of the survey.)
As others have voiced, I do not check in at TOD as much as I once did. (I still check the site several times a week and I am happy to see the addition of the Campfire.)
I had been primarily seeking actionable information, and community support &/or peer pressure. (Love those challenges!!!) I have found that here and elsewhere as the culture has grown and diversified.
Sharon:
Thanks for opening such a thought-provoking topic. The responses I’ve read show that many folk are impacted by this issue.
It’s not only the gender bias that seems to exist at TOD that bothers me, but the fact that many potentially interesting and influential blogs are dominated by a “core” of “personalities” that, in my opinion, tend to intimidate potential contributors. TOD is only one example.
I admit to being a “lurker”, much preferring to read and be informed than trying to prove greater insight and wisdom.
IMHO, Peak Oil is NOW, and the debate ought to end right now! I agree with the many who’ve expressed an interest in solutions, rather than silly discusssions and dissections of what ought to be, by now, an accepted fact. And this is why I very much appreciate this web site and the help and support you offer. We really don’t need graphs to tell us what’s up and in what direction we need to be moving. And, I appreciate the absence of “smackdowns” from the various participants. I never come away from a visit here having not learned something…perhaps something that’s altered my opinion or viepoint, but that’s the point of education,eh? I think we’ve all heard enough preachin’ to the choir.
I know they’re fantasy, of a sort, but I’ve been reading S M Stirling’s novels about “The Change” (DIES THE FIRE). I’ve been struck by the way masculine and feminine power can meld to formulate and realize solutions to very difficult problems…problems we, ourselves, may face. “May”??? hahahahha.
TOD has fallen from my “most read” list, but there are many web sites that offer more solutions than academic debate. You’ve mentioned Dmitri Orlov’s work, and his blog Club Orlov. After many hours of reading and research, I do think Orlov, in spite of his tongue-in-cheek analysis of the US’s situation, offers one of the most realistic appraisals of what it’s apt to be like here when capitalism, finally, collapses in on it’s overbloated self. And he offers some basic strategies on how to deal with the changes. LATOC has links to many helpful writings by Orlov.
Enough! I’m exhausted by years of thinking and trying to plan for PO and what will follow. Wall Street is the least of our worries. I’ve got water to haul and a garden to prepare.
Thanks again, Sharon, for being a light in this growing darkness.
Bill
I’d be scared to comment on T O D. I’m only a female and my university qualifications are in music, art and anthropology. I do skim the site sometimes but generally thats it. It reads like a mens club.
On the other hand, I carefully save this site for some enjoyable reading. I know it will be interesting and I wouldn’t miss it for worlds. I can also feel safe, when commenting, that I won’t be treated like an idiot. Even if I ask a really dumb question.
As long as these sites are linked, I think people will find their way to the places that work for them. And that is the most important thing really.
viv in nz
I’m an occasional commenter at TOD, Sharon, and white, and with one foot firmly in engineering and hard sciences, with bodily scars to match. But I’m definitely not one of the boys. I was already a feminist before the word was invented, and have remained one ever since, committed, and deep. Incidentally, Rhisiart is a male name; the Cymraeg equivalent of Richard.
…but I like graphs.
Boy, middle-class, white male, geologist/permaculturist; I guess I pretty much fit the demographic for TOD readers. But for me, the “what do I do NOW, and how do I prepare my children” is my main priority.
In fairness, while a lot of TOD articles are data-fest/curve matching exercises, there are some very interesting general articles as well; agriculture, health care and changes in family structure. Nate Hagen’s essays on evolutionary psychology have been fascinating and do help in understanding the cognitive clashes between Sharon’s path and what most people seem to be doing.
Do you know what form of birth control most engineers use…their personalities.
I am a smart woman with an advanced degree. You hit the nail on the head @ why women like me move on to the practical versus entering into a debate on “if” it is going to happen. I’m much more interested in the “now what” than looking at more graphs.
Crunch, one of the things that I think is most interesting is that in PO and climate change, most of the “femme” folks are actually really “butch” women, to use a rather essentialist discourse. That is, I’m considered warm and fuzzy by the standards of TOD, but by chick standards, I, like you, am often the only chick in a room full of guys. I suspect that’s true of most of the women in Peak Oil and probably a lot of the ones in Climate Change as well – that even the sense of normative female discourse gets somewhat perverted – I find it really funny that I get identified as the feminine side of peak oil, when, let’s just say, I’m not famous for having one
.
Lisa, no offense, but I’m always suspicious of people who identify themselves as the voice of feminism, as though feminist discourse were one thing.
Sharon
As I mentioned during our dinner, I don’t read a lot of the technical peak oil discussions. Got it. We’re screwed. Now what do we do? That’s my focus – figuring out how to live with less but still enjoy my life enough to live it out. I’ve never cared which boy had the biggest graph…just the best one.
Ha ha ha. You are totally right. Compared to most guys, I am very feminine. But compared to most women, eh, not so much. I have all the requisite parts, just not the attitude. I am not a frilly, fluffy kind o’ gal. I suppose I could be convinced to wear pink feathers under the right conditions even though my preference would be for black leather and chains
Ok, so now I have to start worrying about my sexual identity?
I do not now, and never have read TOD. ew. what the hell for? (Ok, once, I looked. That was plenty.)
a) I’ve known everything they EVER talk about since, what 1967? Or if it’s new info- I learned it yesterday, from the primary source.
b) they never move on. Let’s just all talk about everything- again. whee.
c) and let’s be nasty about it.
Sure, I suppose they’re useful for newbies. But. um. lots of us aren’t.
It’s interesting that I began to read and post on TOD (as “Todd”) years ago was precisely because of the data overload and technical discussions. Aside from the fact that I do have a technical background (research chemist, process development manager, chemical plant manager), it drives me nuts when people (male or female) spout off (editorialize) without supporting data regarding technical topics. It’s also important to note that in the early days, the volume of posts was far less – often 30 a day rather then the hundreds typical now.
At the same time, the last half of my life (I’m 70) has been out of the technical arena as a one-time small-scale certified organic farmer, substitute teacher, groundskeeper and landscape contractor.
My wife and I have walked the talk during these last 30+ years. Part of the reason we chose our lifestyle was precisely because of my technical background. The reason is that I was able to weight and understand evidence that non-technical people had a hard time getting their heads around. I don’t mean this in a condescending way. Rather, it allowed us to be in the forefront of lots of stuff. For example, we put in our first little PV system over 25 years ago when it was all sort of woo-woo.
For anyone interested in knowing more about my wife and I, go to TOD:Campfire from a few weeks ago and check out the essay “A Trip to Todd’s”. What I found interesting/fascinating was the degree of negativity of many of the comments.
FWIW, I have been doing outreach for years. My latest effort will be a series of three garden workshops starting in May at our house in northern Mendocino County, CA: #1 Terra Preta and High Carbom Soils, #2 with a tip of the hat to Sharon, Building Self-Watering Containers and #3 with a tip of the hat to Jason Bradford, What to Grow in a Survival Garden.
Todd (Detzel)
Sometimes I’d love to jump into a discussion at TOD–but I feel I’d get gutted by those guys! Lurker for three years there, but as many above have noted, the doomer porn and the arguments, often not in a kind and civil manner, are a huge turn-off. Still, I go there and check out the comments by fast scanning almost daily. It’s habit forming. And in truth, I have little or nothing to contribute that someone else hasn’t already addressed!
Prepare and have a positive attitude, I say. TOD doesn’t support prep and positive attitudes very often, and yet I like and respect many of the guys, and Gail and Leanan and have come to “know” many. So I’ll keep visiting and fast scanning for the most interesting items! I did the survey, too! Oh and I’m female and elderly and well educated in liberal arts. So I guess I’m better off just lurking. This blog is a lot friendlier with super, helpful info. Thanks again, Sharon.
I think that the rise of female voices has been the most important change that’s occurred in the PO blogosphere. Peak oil is now a healthier and more interesting place because of it.
The problem is not with the hyper-technical approach of The Oil Drum. The problem is that for years, that was the ONLY approach.
I’d like to see even more voices. More races and ethnic groups. A wider assortment of job categories. More nationalities.
Bart
Energy Bulletin
I’m a white, female 52 year old with a PhD in physical chemistry. I’m used to being the only woman in a group of men, and getting them to listen to me; it happened all through grad school and my 8 year career in industry. But I only lurk on TUD (and not often at that) while I regularly read and often comment on here.
Re PO: I’ve been PO aware since 2004 and was concerned about what was then labeled as the energy crisis for years before. But I didn’t start hanging out in the blogosphere till a couple of months ago, because until then I had dial-up access to the Internet and was still on Mac OS 9. I couldn’t even read your blog because my browser was so out of date, and even if I could have, I probably wouldn’t have because just keeping up with my email took so long. (My DH and I live simply so we don’t keep up technologically.)
So why do I only lurk on TOD and comment here? Well, I’m not just a scientist, but a full person. Your site is, IMO, supportive of our full selves. I love the mix of practical info and literary references (the Seuss column was great!). Everyone on this site is a whole person too, and the conversation is enjoyable. The times I’ve looked at the comments on TOD, some of them were downright mean. I don’t enjoy reading the insults and put-downs. I’d much rather hang out here and participate in a friendly, supportive discussion (and enjoy the wonderful literary references at the same time!).
Thanks so much for the mention, Sharon. This is a good point that you make, regarding gender. I have not dared broach it myself for where would I begin? I feared having to work twice as hard to be both reassuring that I am not blaming the culture and at the same time teaching where improvements could be made. Better to just hang on the outskirts as if peak oil was a phenomena I alone was having to contend with in a sort of parallel universe to the larger culture of mainstream America.
I met Bart Anderson at a Peak Oil workshop in early ’05. As editor of the Energy Bulletin, he asked to post my article on the work shop and subsequent ones to EB. I couldn’t figure out why EB readers would be interested in the non-technical perspective of a newbie, but this happy meeting strengthened my exposure to the PO community while helping to broaden it at the same time. And I was very glad to discover your righteous female voice not too long after that, around which has clustered a new community of practical women and men thinking what to do.
I hear penises and vaginas make different noises when you put them in a wind tunnel. Outrageous…there ought to be a law about it!
Im sorry but I find this to be a really boring topic to talk about. Looking at trends and averages with respect to gender (or height or hair color for that matter) will always bring up some entrenched differences, but the overlap between the two genders is also huge. Being a human and being an individual (and a nice one at that) are more important than being a particular gender.
Agree that TOD is becoming apparently less relevant as those who have gotten peak oil get on with dealing with the fall out. For those who havent got it yet (and love data dumps) it is still very valuable. And as the graphs start to do weird non-linear things I think it will continue to be useful for those of us already on top of the current tidy theories about what is going to happen next.
I stopped reading TOD a long time ago because they were constantly repeating themselves. They never moved on to the next step- how do we live in this new world. You, Sharon are the only one out there doing it on a level of articulation and analysis that is unmatched. That is why I am so devoted and grateful to you. If any of those guys at TOD were my husbands, I would kick them in the butt and tell them to stop their brain farts about the details and start doing practical things to prepare. You only have to read them for a couple of days or weeks to think “alright already, I get it, I get it!”.
( In fact it was just a couple of weeks ago I had to kick my husband in the butt because he was *grateful* that I was doing all the work). MEN! (ok not all men!)
TOD is what it is and will continue to be a site where one can get informed with data presented in a fairly rigorous way. On the other hand, the analysis often turns into paralysis as every proposed solution to anything gets put through the meat grinder. Another interesting demographic that needs to be exposed would be the percentage of TOD lurkers/contriubutors who do not really have lives.
Could another possible interpretation of all this is that woman tend to have lives while men, especially retired men, don’t.
Anyway, let other sites bloom with different perspectives. TOD is just one site so perhaps we don’t need to obsess about it so much.
My wife is every bit as “peak oil aware” as I am. However, as an insulin dependent diabetic who has suffered kidney failure, received a transplant and is utterly dependent on immunosuppressant medication, she realizes that when “the shit hits the fan” she will be among the first to die. With this realization, she has no interest in revisiting the PO issue or dwelling on it or in making “preps.” Hence, she doesn’t hang out in websites like TOD.
And as for all the “extreme doomerism,” when faced with a mass extinction event that rivals or exceeds the end-Cretaceous dieoff, what kind of an “optimistic” spin can you put on such a thing? How can you prepare for such a thing? When you realize that anthropomorphic mass extinction dooms every vertebrate species much bigger than a bullhead catfish, a starling, or a rat, how do you think you’re going to protect your family from it? People – men and women – need to get real; need to face the enormity of what we as individuals, as a species, and as components of a biosphere in crisis face.
[...] Shocking Demographics of The Oil Drum Revealed (Sharon Astyk) Now don’t get me wrong, I actually think that TOD is one of the best sites on the net. I don’t write for a lot of other sites – I don’t have time and energy for it. I have written for TOD, because I think what they do is truly important. I am enormously grateful to those guys with graphs and penises for the work they do in sorting through an enormous amount of difficult data. [...]
This is just too much.
As a white anglo saxon male I can expect no quarter. We are the font of all evil and vileness etc (please supply your own adjectives).
Is it not
1. Racist
2. Sexist?
When we don’t listen but offer solutions to your problems we are condemned.
I find it a big turnoff.
OK Gladys. You want solutions.
1 Buy a rifle.
2 Buy a yacht
3 Learn to use them
4 Detatch yourself emotionaly from everything.
5 Contemplate your death at least once a day.
yeah yeah I know.
A nasty white male anglo saxon survivalist no less. (Oh yes. I forgot. And a Proud Colonial)
If a survivalist is bad, then the opposit of a survivalist is good.
Go on, you know what you have to do in order to be the opposit of a survivalist.
Doomer porn? Porn is a fantasy. I have lived through this reality once already.
I was born on the frontiers of civilisation. I have seen it crumble. We lost BigTime. Your man Bob Mugabe won.
I also recognise a domesticated animal when I see one. It is forever infantile.
No-one is going to rescue you.You had better impliment your plans. Don’t like my plan? You pays your money and you takes your chances.
Hi,
well I came across PO in late ’07 at a bad time. I was having a nervous breakdown (due to no work and the loss of my beautiful home) – and just happened to read “The Empty Tank”. A doomer book and great PO primer, it really, really did nothing to cheer me up. Along with other stuff in my life – I simply rejected it and curled up in my own little world of hell.
But, when I was ready to come back out, PO was still there
what to do about that?
I joined a Transition Town movement, a local group who are proactive in building a future community able to thrive in a post-oil world.
Cultures are very different. I was brought up in England with a strongly matriarchal working-class mother (boy, those folks don’t pull any punches) with a kindly, eccentric middle class father (the “full suit with waistcoat” sort the English produced in bulk before WW-II). That was confusing..
..yet the big difference I see between the sexes {of that era} is the authority / responsibility split, something not mentioned.
In my experience the males want authority yet the women end up taking responsibility.
Recent styles of capitalism seems to do the same – capitalism really, really wants to pass all responsibility on to someone – something we see right now with the banks / wall street. I think this issue is key and needs addressing.
Do I read TOD? On occasion; my main news source though is The Energy Bulletin. If EB points up a good article, I’ll check it out.
peace
Sharon,
Thanks for a thought-provoking essay. I think TOD HAS largely hashed out several outlines of the technical solutions for living sustainably in a petroleum-free world. The problem for the engineers and scientists on TOD is that the real roadblock is not technical, it’s political/cultural/behavioral. The kinds of people skills that are required to induce the political/cultural/behavioral changes needed are not in the engineers’ and scientists’ forte (assuming these changes are even possible in the first place – look at how ossified our political system is in dealing with the current economic crisis). So, you end up with a lot of frustration and doomerism of the most sincere, heartfelt kind. And what do you do with that frustration? Vent it where you can…on TOD.
I don’t get the breast-beating arguments, though.
..that should say that capitalism, “really, really wants to pass all responsibility on to someone else”.
I very much like TOD’s logical, data-driven approach to investigation of potential problems. However, you (darwinsdog) and certain other posters seem to assume that you know the extent, severity, and timing of the coming mass extinction so well that anyone who disputes any detail of your vision just “need[s] to get real” or the like. This does not constitute scientific debate, and it makes other people who derive less extreme forecasts from the same data feel unwelcome. Admittedly, this is far less true for you than for certain other posters who seem emotionally attached to the idea that urbanites and nonwhites worldwide must either starve to death en masse or become mindless cannibal hordes, while white rednecks will do fine (maybe by eating city folk?). If TOD could get rid of those outright bigots, I would spend more time there.
Even your opinions, though, must be hard on your wife if she values them. Others have envisioned an energy descent in which, despite increasing poverty and ecological disasters, drugs continued to be made for decades and were available to the lucky ones who could still afford health care. If your wife saw that as a possible future, she might be motivated to “make preps” and plan for how to generate enough cash income in a collapsing economy that she could buy her meds. Instead, she’s hearing your belief that total collapse is coming so she’s gonna die soon, game over, nothing she can do. What’s her motivation to hear more of that, or to work toward any goal if she believes it? Suppose that for the first time ever the fast-crash advocates are right and we’re all eating each other five years from now, and your wife dies. Wouldn’t it still have been better for her to have a few years of hope, and might you not still benefit from whatever she did to prepare for a more typical collapse?
Having met over 2 dozen TODers, most male, some wives, who have taken the time to stop in my Soup Shop here, although they are sometimes the fringe and lurkers, I just want to assure everybody that these are wonderful, earthy, caring people, even the hard core science/engineer types.
All express a deep concern about the humanitarian elements of the converging issues perhaps because that is what I want to hear but it all seems sincere. All are more open with their feelings in person than in the TOD forum but this is probably true with all forums vs face to face which is another issue for another time.
Having said that it is also very true that there are some very aggressive, diligent, retentive, aerobic commenter’s who just love a good argument or NEED to set right all wrongs uttered in the forum. There is a lot of good info and occasional deep analysis in the posts and comments.
Bottom line, just as with all sources of information, one needs to sift and take with a grain of salt.
Love your work Sharon.
Cheers
I have been reading your comments and I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I spent last weekend with my son it the woods teaching him primitive skills. I spend my off-time moving my life off of the grid. What were you doing? I think that you all should stop writing about the unfairness of life, take personal responsibility, and get ready for the heap of hell that is headed our way. Our primitive ancestors didn’t discuss equality or rights, they were too busy just trying to stay alive.
This response is in particular to Th in SoC.
Sadly, the hypocrisy in your post is difficult to miss. And I disagree completely with your characterization. That’s not surprising given the hypocrisy, eh?
To all: Saying I won’t post there because they are this way or that way really has no merit, imo.
This is particularly true since I disagree many of the characterizations I’ve read here. (Don’t misunderstand this as a defense; it isn’t.) The problem many of the characterizations have is lumping in all together. The Campfire series exists, for example, in some part because some of us kept hounding the staff about the lack of focus on solutions. The response for a long time was that it was being handled elsewhere. That, in fact, is true. But each of us has a site or two we orbit around and it ‘s nice to have one-stop shopping, so to speak. I like to think I, a 40-something white male, non-scientist, not engineer, feminist-supporting, father of a 14 mo.-old had something to do with that, though it may be a fiction.
I also disagree with the graph measuring claim. But, then, I come from a very large family and have always been comfortable with conflict. In fact, I find I and my siblings have very little patience for people who aren’t honest because we have always been very, very straight with one another. It’s not easy, but it sure as heck is better in the long run because you always know where you stand and know when and where to work towards compromise and where to agree to disagree.
This includes PC-speak. In wishing for everyone to be nice and sweet and kind and generous you are basically saying you can’t accept others as they are, no? Is it not the opposite of being an accepting person to decry that others aren’t to your standard or style? To be honest, I have always wondered at people who even raise the issue. Question a poster’s facts, their judgment, their intelligence, even, but their style or basic belief system? To what end? The reality is, you are not visiting because of who *you* are, not who they are. And you’re not better, you’re just different. Kind of like a town or city. All one, all separate, all different. I think that’s what we call neighbors. And that may well need to be all the more true in the future.
Anyway, a different perspective. Love your blog, Sharon. Have you linked over on my middle-aged, white male-created blog.
Oh, btw, one reason I *don’t* spend time on some of you other ladies’ blogs is that, despite your focus on solutions stuff, there is not enough useful information mixed in with the touchy-feely.
Perhaps I should mention I have been a counselor and am a teacher.
Just to confuse the issues a bit more.
Cheers
P.S. To whomever was giving doomers a hard time: Have you read any good works on Chaos Theory? Seems it applies to, well, virtually everything. Changed my perspective on perception of events. Anyone I’m aware of who understands how chaotic patterns are pretty much all over the place sees the current situation as very bad times ahead. The stamp of chaos is all over. And it scares the heck out of me.
The thing is dewey, that I DO have a pretty good idea of “the extent, severity, and timing” of AME. It began in Plio-/Pleistocene Africa with the ascendancy of the Homini, gained momentum during the late Pleistocene with the invention of fluted points & the atlatl, deadfall technology, and later the invention of the bow, ramped up further with the domestication of goats & other livestock leading to overgrazing & desertification, and REALLY ramped up with the onset of the industrial revolution. AME ALREADY ranks as one of the sixth great mass extinction episodes to befall the Ocean Planet over the course of the Phanerozoic eon, and a tremendous backlog of inevitable extinction has yet to occur, even if all humans suddenly dropped dead. The species that manage to survive a mass extinction episode is largely determined fortuitously, but the one invariant factor is that all survivors are of small body size. Species of much bigger than mean body size for their respective group are doomed. Bullhead catfish, starlings & rats are of about mean body size for fish, birds & mammals. You may say that all of the above is mere assertion on my part but I challenge you to take a graduate level Macroevolution course that explores the paleobiology and statistical analysis of mass extinction events, then come back and challenge with facts anything I assert. If you will do so, I expect that you will then consider my posts to be understatements of the case, if anything.
It just occurred to me that this post may draw and has already drawn a lot of TODers to this site. Not sure that is a good thing.
Curiously, Sharon, the three TODers you name, Leanan, Gail and (formerly of the site) Stoneliegh are of the most respected (or to my mind, at least, the wisest and most respectable) contributors. I do find that interesting in a site made up mostly of men.
For my part, I stopped reading TOD a while ago, not because it doesn’t have it’s value, but it’s a heavy daily slog to get the value out of it. For now, I’ve moved my interest over to economics (TAE) and maintain a passing interest in energy news with energybulletin.net. Time will come again when TOD’s focus takes on primacy, or at least equal importance with economics.
“Curiously, Sharon, the three TODers you name, Leanan, Gail and (formerly of the site) Stoneliegh are of the most respected (or to my mind, at least, the wisest and most respectable) contributors.”
As you imply, it depends on perspective. Leanan and Gail are two of the most pessimistic doomers on the board. If that’s the way you lean, they will certainly be the wisest. If you are interested in insights into the energy industry, into alternative energy, or into peak oil mitigation they would be on the opposite end of that spectrum.