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	<title>Comments on: Farms as Battlegrounds</title>
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	<description>Finding the keys to the future…and trying not to lose them in the mess.</description>
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		<title>By: juicy couture bags</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/comment-page-1/#comment-37152</link>
		<dc:creator>juicy couture bags</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Mar 2011 11:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/#comment-37152</guid>
		<description>Between me and my husband we&#039;ve owned more MP3 players over the years than I can count, including Sansas, iRivers, iPods (classic &amp; touch), the Ibiza Rhapsody, etc. But, the last few years I&#039;ve settled down to one line of players. Why? Because I was happy to discover how well-designed and fun to use the underappreciated (and widely mocked) Zunes are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Between me and my husband we&#8217;ve owned more MP3 players over the years than I can count, including Sansas, iRivers, iPods (classic &amp; touch), the Ibiza Rhapsody, etc. But, the last few years I&#8217;ve settled down to one line of players. Why? Because I was happy to discover how well-designed and fun to use the underappreciated (and widely mocked) Zunes are.</p>
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		<title>By: Everything I Want to Do is Illegal &#171; This Ringing Bell</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/comment-page-1/#comment-17009</link>
		<dc:creator>Everything I Want to Do is Illegal &#171; This Ringing Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/#comment-17009</guid>
		<description>[...] I Want to Do is&#160;Illegal    Sharon Astyk posts on the state of small farms in the wake of ridiculous regulation and the overly parental state.  The title of this post is a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I Want to Do is&nbsp;Illegal    Sharon Astyk posts on the state of small farms in the wake of ridiculous regulation and the overly parental state.  The title of this post is a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Leigh</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/comment-page-1/#comment-17008</link>
		<dc:creator>Leigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/#comment-17008</guid>
		<description>Sharon wrote: &quot;We should be free to choose what risks we want to take - whether the risks of industrial food’s health costs and contamination problems, or the potential problems of small producers who have to go into the next room to wash up.&quot;

Overall, this is a great article, Sharon, but I must ask, Where is our freedom in &quot;industrial food&#039;s health costs and contamination problems&quot;? We all pay directly and indirectly for the CAFOs&#039; &quot;right&quot; to exist, don&#039;t we? We in the Mid Atlantic states have paid for it in terms of water contaminated by poultry concentration camps and hog farms whose waste lagoons are breached when hurricanes roll through. I fail to see any freedom connected with these.

&quot;As above so below&quot; and the reverse is true as well. When domesticated livestock cannot express their &quot;isness&quot; by having access to grass and sunlight, neither can the folks who eat them. And the rest of us pay both in higher healthcare costs as well as a general degradation in the productivity and well-being of our fellow humans.

Where is my &quot;freedom&quot; to drink raw milk? I used to be in a share program in Virginia, but it became too far for me to drive to pick up the milk. Now, I live in Maryland, where even share programs are illegal. If we&#039;re going to outlaw such a wholesome product -- I felt better drinking it and never once got sick while drinking it, and I mean not sick at all, not even a cold -- then we may as well bring back Prohibition. Alcohol will kill us far more quickly.

Thanks,
Leigh</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sharon wrote: &#8220;We should be free to choose what risks we want to take &#8211; whether the risks of industrial food’s health costs and contamination problems, or the potential problems of small producers who have to go into the next room to wash up.&#8221;</p>
<p>Overall, this is a great article, Sharon, but I must ask, Where is our freedom in &#8220;industrial food&#8217;s health costs and contamination problems&#8221;? We all pay directly and indirectly for the CAFOs&#8217; &#8220;right&#8221; to exist, don&#8217;t we? We in the Mid Atlantic states have paid for it in terms of water contaminated by poultry concentration camps and hog farms whose waste lagoons are breached when hurricanes roll through. I fail to see any freedom connected with these.</p>
<p>&#8220;As above so below&#8221; and the reverse is true as well. When domesticated livestock cannot express their &#8220;isness&#8221; by having access to grass and sunlight, neither can the folks who eat them. And the rest of us pay both in higher healthcare costs as well as a general degradation in the productivity and well-being of our fellow humans.</p>
<p>Where is my &#8220;freedom&#8221; to drink raw milk? I used to be in a share program in Virginia, but it became too far for me to drive to pick up the milk. Now, I live in Maryland, where even share programs are illegal. If we&#8217;re going to outlaw such a wholesome product &#8212; I felt better drinking it and never once got sick while drinking it, and I mean not sick at all, not even a cold &#8212; then we may as well bring back Prohibition. Alcohol will kill us far more quickly.</p>
<p>Thanks,<br />
Leigh</p>
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		<title>By: Susan</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/comment-page-1/#comment-17007</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 22:04:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/#comment-17007</guid>
		<description>I grew up drinking raw milk; my uncle and my parents both ran small farms and put their milk in the (now) quaint milk cans.  We drank raw milk; I bought it and drank it until recently when it went up to $12 per gallon.

Listeria is the least of my worries, at least with the raw milk suppliers.  They are scrupulous with cleanliness.  I did however get milk from Costco recently and had to throw it out due to the black mold growing on the top of the milk, that stuck to the sides of the jug.

These regulations are designed to run small, sustainable farmers out of business and allow only for the industrial ag producers to run the country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I grew up drinking raw milk; my uncle and my parents both ran small farms and put their milk in the (now) quaint milk cans.  We drank raw milk; I bought it and drank it until recently when it went up to $12 per gallon.</p>
<p>Listeria is the least of my worries, at least with the raw milk suppliers.  They are scrupulous with cleanliness.  I did however get milk from Costco recently and had to throw it out due to the black mold growing on the top of the milk, that stuck to the sides of the jug.</p>
<p>These regulations are designed to run small, sustainable farmers out of business and allow only for the industrial ag producers to run the country.</p>
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		<title>By: Joanna</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/comment-page-1/#comment-17006</link>
		<dc:creator>Joanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/#comment-17006</guid>
		<description>Every farmer I&#039;ve ever bought raw milk from was absolutely religious about cleanliness.  Unless the cow is somehow getting fecal matter into her bag, I am disinclined to worry about it.  (if she is, I suspect that the farmer has other significant problems!)  It really boils down to my diligence in seeing how the farmer manages his farm, and to my trust that they are maintaining it the same way when I am out of sight.  I do not trust the government to do this for me.  I tend to think that the self-motivated farmer who cares deeply is a far more trustworthy individual regarding my family&#039;s health than someone who is motivated by trying to meet regulations.  It practically begs for short cuts, if the regulations aren&#039;t meaningful to them.

These laws and regs are pretty much exactly what has convinced us that we cannot open a goat dairy the way we&#039;d hoped to.  We simply don&#039;t have the upfront money, nor the optimism to take out large loans.

It&#039;s a pity.  So we focus on feeding ourselves for the time being, waiting for the oil to fuel regulatory acitivity to run out.  At least that way we&#039;ll have accomplished some of the steepest learning curve ahead of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every farmer I&#8217;ve ever bought raw milk from was absolutely religious about cleanliness.  Unless the cow is somehow getting fecal matter into her bag, I am disinclined to worry about it.  (if she is, I suspect that the farmer has other significant problems!)  It really boils down to my diligence in seeing how the farmer manages his farm, and to my trust that they are maintaining it the same way when I am out of sight.  I do not trust the government to do this for me.  I tend to think that the self-motivated farmer who cares deeply is a far more trustworthy individual regarding my family&#8217;s health than someone who is motivated by trying to meet regulations.  It practically begs for short cuts, if the regulations aren&#8217;t meaningful to them.</p>
<p>These laws and regs are pretty much exactly what has convinced us that we cannot open a goat dairy the way we&#8217;d hoped to.  We simply don&#8217;t have the upfront money, nor the optimism to take out large loans.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a pity.  So we focus on feeding ourselves for the time being, waiting for the oil to fuel regulatory acitivity to run out.  At least that way we&#8217;ll have accomplished some of the steepest learning curve ahead of time.</p>
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		<title>By: Sharon</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/comment-page-1/#comment-17005</link>
		<dc:creator>Sharon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/#comment-17005</guid>
		<description>Just one more point on the raw milk discussion - it is important to note that listeria is a common consequence of many processed foods as well - deli meats, raw juices, soft-serve ice cream, etc...  That is, it is a real and serious risk to fetuses and very young children, and it pays to be careful, but the majority of cases of listeria in the US come not from raw milk or raw milk soft cheeses, but from processed foods, or from pasteurized milk and pasteurized milk products that are contaminated at some later point.

Also worth noting - aged cheeses are not a major risk, even if made with raw milk.  The FDA lists aged raw milk cheeses last among its list of potential listeria carriers.

Again, I&#039;m not arguing with you, Greg, about the risk of listeria, nor do I object to pasteurizing my own milk for sale (I can&#039;t sell it raw or pasteurized in NY), or teaching my customers to pasteurize before they drink if they have risk factors.  Just observing that raw milk is itself not the biggest actor in this drama.

Sharon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just one more point on the raw milk discussion &#8211; it is important to note that listeria is a common consequence of many processed foods as well &#8211; deli meats, raw juices, soft-serve ice cream, etc&#8230;  That is, it is a real and serious risk to fetuses and very young children, and it pays to be careful, but the majority of cases of listeria in the US come not from raw milk or raw milk soft cheeses, but from processed foods, or from pasteurized milk and pasteurized milk products that are contaminated at some later point.</p>
<p>Also worth noting &#8211; aged cheeses are not a major risk, even if made with raw milk.  The FDA lists aged raw milk cheeses last among its list of potential listeria carriers.</p>
<p>Again, I&#8217;m not arguing with you, Greg, about the risk of listeria, nor do I object to pasteurizing my own milk for sale (I can&#8217;t sell it raw or pasteurized in NY), or teaching my customers to pasteurize before they drink if they have risk factors.  Just observing that raw milk is itself not the biggest actor in this drama.</p>
<p>Sharon</p>
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		<title>By: WNC Observer</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/comment-page-1/#comment-17004</link>
		<dc:creator>WNC Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:44:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/#comment-17004</guid>
		<description>Along with Peak Oil and Peak Economy, we are also seeing Peak Regulations. This NAIS thing is just about the last gasp.

As the economy declines, governments are going to find it impossible to keep up their enforcement efforts. Eventually, it will be pretty much back to the unregulated market that used to be. Hopefully we will have learned a little bit about public health and can manage to keep a few wise and effective practices in place (maybe informally applied and enforced by local guilds or something) to protect people from the worst health risks.

Right now, the problem is that we few far-sighted individuals already see the direction things are heading, and want to get a jump start into the new paradigm. Meanwhile, the mass of society, and especially government at all levels, is still mired in the old paradigm, and cannot even realize that it is shifting, let alone imagine what the new paradigm is shaping up to be. Somehow, we need to figure out how to position ourselves to be ready when things have relaxed to the point where new opportunities open up, while meanwhile living within the constraints that our excessive regulatory regime imposes upon us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Along with Peak Oil and Peak Economy, we are also seeing Peak Regulations. This NAIS thing is just about the last gasp.</p>
<p>As the economy declines, governments are going to find it impossible to keep up their enforcement efforts. Eventually, it will be pretty much back to the unregulated market that used to be. Hopefully we will have learned a little bit about public health and can manage to keep a few wise and effective practices in place (maybe informally applied and enforced by local guilds or something) to protect people from the worst health risks.</p>
<p>Right now, the problem is that we few far-sighted individuals already see the direction things are heading, and want to get a jump start into the new paradigm. Meanwhile, the mass of society, and especially government at all levels, is still mired in the old paradigm, and cannot even realize that it is shifting, let alone imagine what the new paradigm is shaping up to be. Somehow, we need to figure out how to position ourselves to be ready when things have relaxed to the point where new opportunities open up, while meanwhile living within the constraints that our excessive regulatory regime imposes upon us.</p>
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		<title>By: Coleen</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/comment-page-1/#comment-17003</link>
		<dc:creator>Coleen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:33:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/#comment-17003</guid>
		<description>Perhaps those people who are so anti-raw milk should read more on listerosis.  Pasturization does not keep listerosis from becoming a problem and this bacteria actually increases under refrigeration. Yes, it is a problem for the immuno-supressed, pregnant women and childern. So are all the other &quot;bad&quot; bacteria in our soil (that we grow vegetables in), our showers, our clothes...you get my drift.

Food-borne illness has been marketed well to keep the masses buying from the big institutions, rather than doing our own canning, enjoying our farm production and that of our neighbors. We are all going to die of something...most likely it&#039;s not going to be food. The odds are much more in favor of cancer, heart disease, automobile accidents...you don&#039;t see too many people telling you how dangerous it is to ride in that car do you?  &quot;Statistically&quot; speaking, food-borne deaths and major illness are a NIT!

Even we farmers have bought into the advertising campaigns against our own products and to the one-in-a-million odds of getting sued and loosing our land and livelihoods. The lack of personal responsibility, ability to sue for the least issue, and the entitlement generation are going to break us, if the collapse doesn&#039;t come soon. If the collapse is too slow then the regulators will try enforcement as revenue generation and control. If it hits hard, then all bets are off and people will want food enough to value our products, even if they don&#039;t have any money to pay for it.  No matter what happens, producing your own food, giving it to neighbors and telling our politicians to BACK OFF! is the right thing to do, so we must be persistent and LOUD. My representative here in OK, says it&#039;s really not the battle of Dems and Repubs, rather a battle of city v. country since the city thinks all food magically appears in grocery stores.

Our job is education! We need to be taking every opportunity to teach kids about farms, educate parents about food laws and why we need to be ACTIVISTS in this particular area, speakers at community forums and using every soap box we can find.  This is too important to let someone else take care of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps those people who are so anti-raw milk should read more on listerosis.  Pasturization does not keep listerosis from becoming a problem and this bacteria actually increases under refrigeration. Yes, it is a problem for the immuno-supressed, pregnant women and childern. So are all the other &#8220;bad&#8221; bacteria in our soil (that we grow vegetables in), our showers, our clothes&#8230;you get my drift.</p>
<p>Food-borne illness has been marketed well to keep the masses buying from the big institutions, rather than doing our own canning, enjoying our farm production and that of our neighbors. We are all going to die of something&#8230;most likely it&#8217;s not going to be food. The odds are much more in favor of cancer, heart disease, automobile accidents&#8230;you don&#8217;t see too many people telling you how dangerous it is to ride in that car do you?  &#8220;Statistically&#8221; speaking, food-borne deaths and major illness are a NIT!</p>
<p>Even we farmers have bought into the advertising campaigns against our own products and to the one-in-a-million odds of getting sued and loosing our land and livelihoods. The lack of personal responsibility, ability to sue for the least issue, and the entitlement generation are going to break us, if the collapse doesn&#8217;t come soon. If the collapse is too slow then the regulators will try enforcement as revenue generation and control. If it hits hard, then all bets are off and people will want food enough to value our products, even if they don&#8217;t have any money to pay for it.  No matter what happens, producing your own food, giving it to neighbors and telling our politicians to BACK OFF! is the right thing to do, so we must be persistent and LOUD. My representative here in OK, says it&#8217;s really not the battle of Dems and Repubs, rather a battle of city v. country since the city thinks all food magically appears in grocery stores.</p>
<p>Our job is education! We need to be taking every opportunity to teach kids about farms, educate parents about food laws and why we need to be ACTIVISTS in this particular area, speakers at community forums and using every soap box we can find.  This is too important to let someone else take care of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Urban Gardener</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/comment-page-1/#comment-17002</link>
		<dc:creator>Urban Gardener</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 23:47:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/#comment-17002</guid>
		<description>Try this one :-
In Illinois, if you cut honeycomb and package it to sell, no problem. The minute you filter the honey and package it, it is considered &quot;processed&quot; and needs to be done in a commercial kitchen.
Pasteurization is not required.
Now, they say you can use any commercial kitchen, e.g. restaurant, school etc, but in practice, folks will not &quot;loan out&quot; due to liability issues.
So essentially one then has to rent.
I have 2 hives and produce about 50 lbs of honey surplus for sale. About 80 bottles, mixed 8oz and 16oz.
I have to pull the frames, put them in a box in the trunk of the car, drive 8 miles to the kitchen through an industrial area, go up 2 floors in a freight elevator, then pay for 4-6 hours rental time in order to filter the honey through a sieve into jars, right next to people filling the air with flour for baked goods.
Well, if I want to sell at farmers markets, that&#039;s what I have to do....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try this one :-<br />
In Illinois, if you cut honeycomb and package it to sell, no problem. The minute you filter the honey and package it, it is considered &#8220;processed&#8221; and needs to be done in a commercial kitchen.<br />
Pasteurization is not required.<br />
Now, they say you can use any commercial kitchen, e.g. restaurant, school etc, but in practice, folks will not &#8220;loan out&#8221; due to liability issues.<br />
So essentially one then has to rent.<br />
I have 2 hives and produce about 50 lbs of honey surplus for sale. About 80 bottles, mixed 8oz and 16oz.<br />
I have to pull the frames, put them in a box in the trunk of the car, drive 8 miles to the kitchen through an industrial area, go up 2 floors in a freight elevator, then pay for 4-6 hours rental time in order to filter the honey through a sieve into jars, right next to people filling the air with flour for baked goods.<br />
Well, if I want to sell at farmers markets, that&#8217;s what I have to do&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Meg</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/comment-page-1/#comment-17001</link>
		<dc:creator>Meg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/2009/06/20/farms-as-battlegrounds/#comment-17001</guid>
		<description>I work on a small goat dairy in western NC, and I can vouch for the costliness of such an operation. The regulations are many and myriad, and although we were licensed in 2001 we aren&#039;t technically a grade A dairy. Thus, we cannot sell milk, period, much less raw milk even though there is a high demand in this area for it. I drink raw milk and have done so for quite a while. I&#039;ve never been sick because of raw milk, and I am thoroughly convinced that it is healthier and easier for the gut to process. In fact, pasteurization destroys much of the &quot;good&quot; bacteria that prevents &quot;bad&quot; bacteria from gaining a foothold, thus being a blank slate for colonization by harmful pathogens. Of course, I think people should have the option to obtain raw milk from good sources. I&#039;ve always been of the mindset that people should be able to make their own decisions about what they consume and where it comes from, and subsequently take responsibility for those choices. The government, in my mind, has absolutely no right to dictate what we can eat.

On the subject of NAIS, I count myself a resistor as well. If you haven&#039;t read Everything I Want To Do Is Illegal, I suggest you do so. Farming in any form is becoming more and more costly and difficult, and this is a time when we need young, dedicated farmers more than ever. The government should be encouraging small farmers, not discouraging them with senseless, overbearing regulation and escalating costs of business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I work on a small goat dairy in western NC, and I can vouch for the costliness of such an operation. The regulations are many and myriad, and although we were licensed in 2001 we aren&#8217;t technically a grade A dairy. Thus, we cannot sell milk, period, much less raw milk even though there is a high demand in this area for it. I drink raw milk and have done so for quite a while. I&#8217;ve never been sick because of raw milk, and I am thoroughly convinced that it is healthier and easier for the gut to process. In fact, pasteurization destroys much of the &#8220;good&#8221; bacteria that prevents &#8220;bad&#8221; bacteria from gaining a foothold, thus being a blank slate for colonization by harmful pathogens. Of course, I think people should have the option to obtain raw milk from good sources. I&#8217;ve always been of the mindset that people should be able to make their own decisions about what they consume and where it comes from, and subsequently take responsibility for those choices. The government, in my mind, has absolutely no right to dictate what we can eat.</p>
<p>On the subject of NAIS, I count myself a resistor as well. If you haven&#8217;t read Everything I Want To Do Is Illegal, I suggest you do so. Farming in any form is becoming more and more costly and difficult, and this is a time when we need young, dedicated farmers more than ever. The government should be encouraging small farmers, not discouraging them with senseless, overbearing regulation and escalating costs of business.</p>
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