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	<title>Comments on: Finding My Place: How We Got Here Part II</title>
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	<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2010/01/05/finding-my-place-how-we-got-here-part-ii/</link>
	<description>Finding the keys to the future…and trying not to lose them in the mess.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 14:38:19 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Bill Harshaw</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2010/01/05/finding-my-place-how-we-got-here-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-21829</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Harshaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 23:23:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/?p=1583#comment-21829</guid>
		<description>Anyone reading this for tips for their own purchase should consider checking in with the county extension office and/or the Natural Resource Conservation Service office--either could provide input on the soils and probably the history of the farm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone reading this for tips for their own purchase should consider checking in with the county extension office and/or the Natural Resource Conservation Service office&#8211;either could provide input on the soils and probably the history of the farm.</p>
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		<title>By: Sharon</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2010/01/05/finding-my-place-how-we-got-here-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-21828</link>
		<dc:creator>Sharon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 20:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/?p=1583#comment-21828</guid>
		<description>Re: HughOwens, honestly, I live on planet earth, not planet &quot;platonia&quot; ;-).  Do you know anyone who wants to rent to someone with kids, dogs, cats, etc...?  And I love old houses. And the world does not need more new houses on good land - that&#039;s exactly what&#039;s wrong with our world.

Sharon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: HughOwens, honestly, I live on planet earth, not planet &#8220;platonia&#8221; <img src='http://sharonastyk.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> .  Do you know anyone who wants to rent to someone with kids, dogs, cats, etc&#8230;?  And I love old houses. And the world does not need more new houses on good land &#8211; that&#8217;s exactly what&#8217;s wrong with our world.</p>
<p>Sharon</p>
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		<title>By: GeekyGardener</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2010/01/05/finding-my-place-how-we-got-here-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-21827</link>
		<dc:creator>GeekyGardener</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 14:29:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/?p=1583#comment-21827</guid>
		<description>Not to add too much more fuel to the fire of &quot;old vs. new&quot; debate.  But .. we&#039;ve lived in houses that were 150+ yrs old, 40+ yrs old, and 2 yrs old.  My favorite so far is the 40-50 yr old homes.  They are old enough to have good bones (and if the structure was wobbly, you&#039;d see it by now as opposed to buying new &amp; not knowing the foundation has issues until it&#039;s past the builder warranty).  The wood was still good quality wood, the oak floors are solid and beautifully grained.  And yet, if you need a new window or door you aren&#039;t dealing with the challenge of &quot;Your walls were built with sizes of lumber they don&#039;t make today, we&#039;ll have to custom mill everything.&quot;

It&#039;s cheap enough to add some more insulation &amp; replace a roof.  Plus, with a 40-50 yr old house you are bound to have had someone live there who was a gardner at some point.  The hydrangeas or azaleas might be overgrown, but they are there &amp; they&#039;re beautiful.  Personally I don&#039;t have enough sun in my backyard to grow many veggies right now ... but I love the giant oak trees that let me play hide-and-seek with our dog.  If a tree is so large that my (oversized) butt can hide behind it, it deserves to stay.

And yes, ideally we&#039;d all rent for a couple years before living somewhere.  But if you have pets, livestock, or kids who NEED outside playspace sometimes that isn&#039;t possible.  If you&#039;re in that situation, know that you are making a choice that could cost you $10k - $20k down the line.  For me, I&#039;d take that financial risk over euthanizing old animals and rehoming younger ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to add too much more fuel to the fire of &#8220;old vs. new&#8221; debate.  But .. we&#8217;ve lived in houses that were 150+ yrs old, 40+ yrs old, and 2 yrs old.  My favorite so far is the 40-50 yr old homes.  They are old enough to have good bones (and if the structure was wobbly, you&#8217;d see it by now as opposed to buying new &amp; not knowing the foundation has issues until it&#8217;s past the builder warranty).  The wood was still good quality wood, the oak floors are solid and beautifully grained.  And yet, if you need a new window or door you aren&#8217;t dealing with the challenge of &#8220;Your walls were built with sizes of lumber they don&#8217;t make today, we&#8217;ll have to custom mill everything.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s cheap enough to add some more insulation &amp; replace a roof.  Plus, with a 40-50 yr old house you are bound to have had someone live there who was a gardner at some point.  The hydrangeas or azaleas might be overgrown, but they are there &amp; they&#8217;re beautiful.  Personally I don&#8217;t have enough sun in my backyard to grow many veggies right now &#8230; but I love the giant oak trees that let me play hide-and-seek with our dog.  If a tree is so large that my (oversized) butt can hide behind it, it deserves to stay.</p>
<p>And yes, ideally we&#8217;d all rent for a couple years before living somewhere.  But if you have pets, livestock, or kids who NEED outside playspace sometimes that isn&#8217;t possible.  If you&#8217;re in that situation, know that you are making a choice that could cost you $10k &#8211; $20k down the line.  For me, I&#8217;d take that financial risk over euthanizing old animals and rehoming younger ones.</p>
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		<title>By: Lora</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2010/01/05/finding-my-place-how-we-got-here-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-21826</link>
		<dc:creator>Lora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/?p=1583#comment-21826</guid>
		<description>I can see hughowens&#039; point. I really can.

My house is a 300 year old farmhouse. It had exactly one rotten sill beam, but otherwise structurally sound. Modern plumbing, new electrical box, new wiring (although seemingly installed by crazed monkeys), new septic in good working order. Roof would last perhaps another five years before requiring repair or replacement. Inspector said the sill was not all that difficult to replace, and we negotiated the price down accordingly.

We called something like 25 contractors who advertised that they worked with old buildings. Many refused to return our phone calls after we explained how old the house was and that we wanted a sill replaced with a historical variance, others came by once to reckon an estimate but never returned. Exactly three deigned to take the job, and out of those three, only one gave us an estimate: the other two said that the project would start out requiring a $15k initial payment, and they would just keep asking for more money until it was done--with no upper limit. &quot;Projects like this, you can&#039;t estimate, because you always find something else that you have to fix, and you won&#039;t know what it is till you get the house ripped up,&quot; they explained.

We went with the guy who gave an actual estimate. It turns out you can indeed estimate these projects, if you spend a lot of time inspecting the timbers in many places with a borescope and measuring the relative sinkage of the frame to guess how bad the damage might be. And if you personally know a wholesale custom sawmill with good turnaround times. Total cost about $12k, but took about seven times longer than expected and material costs were 2X more than initially planned. We did indeed find some unexpected horrors (old termite damage poorly repaired, not rot, was the cause of the sill&#039;s demise), but jacking the house was not the nightmare many proposed.

In comparison, cost of sill replacement on a modern, stick-built house: $1000. In my defense, the house is drop-dead gorgeous and makes visitors go &quot;aaaaawwwwwww&quot;.

Next house is going to be earth-sheltered passive-solar with a geothermal pump and a cutesy facade to make it look homey. Between the heating bills and the structural thing, I&#039;m just DONE with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can see hughowens&#8217; point. I really can.</p>
<p>My house is a 300 year old farmhouse. It had exactly one rotten sill beam, but otherwise structurally sound. Modern plumbing, new electrical box, new wiring (although seemingly installed by crazed monkeys), new septic in good working order. Roof would last perhaps another five years before requiring repair or replacement. Inspector said the sill was not all that difficult to replace, and we negotiated the price down accordingly.</p>
<p>We called something like 25 contractors who advertised that they worked with old buildings. Many refused to return our phone calls after we explained how old the house was and that we wanted a sill replaced with a historical variance, others came by once to reckon an estimate but never returned. Exactly three deigned to take the job, and out of those three, only one gave us an estimate: the other two said that the project would start out requiring a $15k initial payment, and they would just keep asking for more money until it was done&#8211;with no upper limit. &#8220;Projects like this, you can&#8217;t estimate, because you always find something else that you have to fix, and you won&#8217;t know what it is till you get the house ripped up,&#8221; they explained.</p>
<p>We went with the guy who gave an actual estimate. It turns out you can indeed estimate these projects, if you spend a lot of time inspecting the timbers in many places with a borescope and measuring the relative sinkage of the frame to guess how bad the damage might be. And if you personally know a wholesale custom sawmill with good turnaround times. Total cost about $12k, but took about seven times longer than expected and material costs were 2X more than initially planned. We did indeed find some unexpected horrors (old termite damage poorly repaired, not rot, was the cause of the sill&#8217;s demise), but jacking the house was not the nightmare many proposed.</p>
<p>In comparison, cost of sill replacement on a modern, stick-built house: $1000. In my defense, the house is drop-dead gorgeous and makes visitors go &#8220;aaaaawwwwwww&#8221;.</p>
<p>Next house is going to be earth-sheltered passive-solar with a geothermal pump and a cutesy facade to make it look homey. Between the heating bills and the structural thing, I&#8217;m just DONE with it.</p>
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		<title>By: Michelle P</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2010/01/05/finding-my-place-how-we-got-here-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-21825</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 17:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/?p=1583#comment-21825</guid>
		<description>All of the  stories about how you got where you are unique &amp; interesting. The Amish house is intriguing, I could see why you&#039;d argue in favor of it!

We think about moving from our big, old, drafty house in a few years. It is not in great cosmetic shape to re sell &amp;  would be difficult to find a comparable home in the same price range.

We are deeply rooted here with parents next door so that keeps us from thinking too much from leaving here.   Not having to walk up stairs when I&#039;m older &amp; not having to heat a big place keep us thinking about a smaller home.  Wanting goats keeps me thinking about more property.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All of the  stories about how you got where you are unique &amp; interesting. The Amish house is intriguing, I could see why you&#8217;d argue in favor of it!</p>
<p>We think about moving from our big, old, drafty house in a few years. It is not in great cosmetic shape to re sell &amp;  would be difficult to find a comparable home in the same price range.</p>
<p>We are deeply rooted here with parents next door so that keeps us from thinking too much from leaving here.   Not having to walk up stairs when I&#8217;m older &amp; not having to heat a big place keep us thinking about a smaller home.  Wanting goats keeps me thinking about more property.</p>
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		<title>By: Deb</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2010/01/05/finding-my-place-how-we-got-here-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-21824</link>
		<dc:creator>Deb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 12:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/?p=1583#comment-21824</guid>
		<description>I agree with Claire that renovating an old house has benefits over building new. We got ours for a song and then put our extra cash into the improvements needed to make it weatherized, insulated and up to code. There is no way we could have afforded a house with it&#039;s size and acreage had we bought a lot and built new. Most importantly, since we did all the work ourselves with very little help from professionals, the house is truly ours in a way a new house never would be--even if the floors slope in places and not one door is even with another.

However, to do it, we had to be willing to learn new skills, think creatively about how to do things and scounge materials when we could. I have a beautiful bow window that was a picture window my husband got a thrift sale for $20 dollar because the owner didnt like the color of the sashes. He took it apart, refitted it and made it into a three part window in our living room. We scrounged some amazing walnut lumber from the town dump for cabinets in my sewing room. We took out the old and very tired kitchen cabinets and put them in the basement for storage space. We bought a manually operated cement mixer at an estate sale for $40 and spent a summer mixing cement and repairing our foundation, putting in a new sidewalk and back stoop.

It&#039;s true that there was a heavy initial investment in time and cash but old houses arent necessarily a money pit. Except for paint and basic maintenance that any house requires, we havent done anything to it for 10 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Claire that renovating an old house has benefits over building new. We got ours for a song and then put our extra cash into the improvements needed to make it weatherized, insulated and up to code. There is no way we could have afforded a house with it&#8217;s size and acreage had we bought a lot and built new. Most importantly, since we did all the work ourselves with very little help from professionals, the house is truly ours in a way a new house never would be&#8211;even if the floors slope in places and not one door is even with another.</p>
<p>However, to do it, we had to be willing to learn new skills, think creatively about how to do things and scounge materials when we could. I have a beautiful bow window that was a picture window my husband got a thrift sale for $20 dollar because the owner didnt like the color of the sashes. He took it apart, refitted it and made it into a three part window in our living room. We scrounged some amazing walnut lumber from the town dump for cabinets in my sewing room. We took out the old and very tired kitchen cabinets and put them in the basement for storage space. We bought a manually operated cement mixer at an estate sale for $40 and spent a summer mixing cement and repairing our foundation, putting in a new sidewalk and back stoop.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that there was a heavy initial investment in time and cash but old houses arent necessarily a money pit. Except for paint and basic maintenance that any house requires, we havent done anything to it for 10 years.</p>
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		<title>By: Claire</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2010/01/05/finding-my-place-how-we-got-here-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-21823</link>
		<dc:creator>Claire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 23:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/?p=1583#comment-21823</guid>
		<description>I will, respectfully, disagree with hughowens on not buying an old house unless it&#039;s insulated and weatherized. That&#039;s because my DH and I bought an old (built in 1928, added to in the 1940s) house, leaky, no wall insulation, almost no attic insulation, on an acre of some of the best soil in the US, for $60,000. We then spent about $35,000-40,000 for the following: proper air leak sealing and insulation, added a basement drainage system and sump pump, did mold remediation (it had mold too), replaced the plumbing stack, and replaced the furnace, AC, and water heater. The house is level enough and the walls are vertical enough; it was built with a roofed south-facing front porch, so the south windows are shaded in the summer but get some sun in the winter; it got a new roof and siding just before we bought it, courtesy of a hailstorm (on the previous owner&#039;s insurance!). My DH has electrician training and he&#039;s satisfied the electric system is safe, even though it&#039;s not to code. There is no way that we could have bought an acre of land and had a house built for the $100,000 (all cash too!) we spent on this house, and it&#039;s set to go for many more years without major renovations being needed. Plus it has the plaster and woodwork of an old house, and no, I don&#039;t care that a couple of the doors don&#039;t close perfectly. I love this house, and it works as well or better than any house that is currently being built around here (St. Louis, MO).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will, respectfully, disagree with hughowens on not buying an old house unless it&#8217;s insulated and weatherized. That&#8217;s because my DH and I bought an old (built in 1928, added to in the 1940s) house, leaky, no wall insulation, almost no attic insulation, on an acre of some of the best soil in the US, for $60,000. We then spent about $35,000-40,000 for the following: proper air leak sealing and insulation, added a basement drainage system and sump pump, did mold remediation (it had mold too), replaced the plumbing stack, and replaced the furnace, AC, and water heater. The house is level enough and the walls are vertical enough; it was built with a roofed south-facing front porch, so the south windows are shaded in the summer but get some sun in the winter; it got a new roof and siding just before we bought it, courtesy of a hailstorm (on the previous owner&#8217;s insurance!). My DH has electrician training and he&#8217;s satisfied the electric system is safe, even though it&#8217;s not to code. There is no way that we could have bought an acre of land and had a house built for the $100,000 (all cash too!) we spent on this house, and it&#8217;s set to go for many more years without major renovations being needed. Plus it has the plaster and woodwork of an old house, and no, I don&#8217;t care that a couple of the doors don&#8217;t close perfectly. I love this house, and it works as well or better than any house that is currently being built around here (St. Louis, MO).</p>
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		<title>By: hughowens</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2010/01/05/finding-my-place-how-we-got-here-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-21822</link>
		<dc:creator>hughowens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/?p=1583#comment-21822</guid>
		<description>Good story Sharon, good cautionary tale. I think your odyssey illustrates KOHO&#039;s first and second rules. First rule is, always,ALWAYS rent a house when you move to a new area, no matter how much or little money you have. A year or two to look trumps a weekend or two.It is the only way to learn the neighborhood, the prevailing winds, schools, soils etc etc. The second rule is nearly as important especially going forward into the wasteland ahead of scarce and expensive energy. Always build NEW if the house you are looking at  will need ANY remodeling or substantive enlargement. No matter how pretty, don&#039;t buy old houses unless they are perfect , heavily insulated and weatherized.  Older house may have style and grace but new houses can have style too. It will take twice the time and money to tear down and rebuild as just building properly to begin with. You will be starting with a new and LEVEL and insulated foundation and floor,sited properly to the sun, vertical walls, code electric, and a new roof, windows, plumbing and doors that close and a safe heating system. I know, as I have built for 40 years and have done it both ways. Life is too short to be spending the rest of it repairing and rebuilding  a house past its service life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good story Sharon, good cautionary tale. I think your odyssey illustrates KOHO&#8217;s first and second rules. First rule is, always,ALWAYS rent a house when you move to a new area, no matter how much or little money you have. A year or two to look trumps a weekend or two.It is the only way to learn the neighborhood, the prevailing winds, schools, soils etc etc. The second rule is nearly as important especially going forward into the wasteland ahead of scarce and expensive energy. Always build NEW if the house you are looking at  will need ANY remodeling or substantive enlargement. No matter how pretty, don&#8217;t buy old houses unless they are perfect , heavily insulated and weatherized.  Older house may have style and grace but new houses can have style too. It will take twice the time and money to tear down and rebuild as just building properly to begin with. You will be starting with a new and LEVEL and insulated foundation and floor,sited properly to the sun, vertical walls, code electric, and a new roof, windows, plumbing and doors that close and a safe heating system. I know, as I have built for 40 years and have done it both ways. Life is too short to be spending the rest of it repairing and rebuilding  a house past its service life.</p>
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		<title>By: Deb</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2010/01/05/finding-my-place-how-we-got-here-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-21821</link>
		<dc:creator>Deb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/?p=1583#comment-21821</guid>
		<description>We did something similiar--make a list of what we wanted and picked a geographical area to find it in. It took 2 years of looking and when we found what we wanted our realtor was aghast...It was so rough that it had been on the market for three years with not even a nibble. And the best part is the elderly couple selling the place were so tickled a young couple with kids were buying they DROPPED the price to so we could pay cash for the place.

 We did all the renovations/repairs ourselves over the course of five years--do a project, save the for the next one, repeat. The kids grew up with a working knowledge of tools, plumbing, roofing, car maintenance, frugal living, cooking from scratch, making do, gardening, canning,  etc etc. Plus they got to wander 36 acres of woods and meadow, build forts in the woods, find owl pellets, get poison ivy, watch mama coons move babies, watch a fox family grow up, learn to hunt and field dress rabbits and squirrels and go sledding by moonlight.

The house isnt perfect and there are lots of things I&#039;d change if I could but overe the years it&#039;s become home for us and now I wouldnt trade the memories for all the modern convienences I dont have.

Deb</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We did something similiar&#8211;make a list of what we wanted and picked a geographical area to find it in. It took 2 years of looking and when we found what we wanted our realtor was aghast&#8230;It was so rough that it had been on the market for three years with not even a nibble. And the best part is the elderly couple selling the place were so tickled a young couple with kids were buying they DROPPED the price to so we could pay cash for the place.</p>
<p> We did all the renovations/repairs ourselves over the course of five years&#8211;do a project, save the for the next one, repeat. The kids grew up with a working knowledge of tools, plumbing, roofing, car maintenance, frugal living, cooking from scratch, making do, gardening, canning,  etc etc. Plus they got to wander 36 acres of woods and meadow, build forts in the woods, find owl pellets, get poison ivy, watch mama coons move babies, watch a fox family grow up, learn to hunt and field dress rabbits and squirrels and go sledding by moonlight.</p>
<p>The house isnt perfect and there are lots of things I&#8217;d change if I could but overe the years it&#8217;s become home for us and now I wouldnt trade the memories for all the modern convienences I dont have.</p>
<p>Deb</p>
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		<title>By: Susan</title>
		<link>http://sharonastyk.com/2010/01/05/finding-my-place-how-we-got-here-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-21820</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 06:31:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sharonastyk.com/?p=1583#comment-21820</guid>
		<description>Yes we have been having these thoughts lately too.  I have my place almost by accident.  I got the house (a little old 2 bed workers cottage) and half acre odd-shaped paddock as the property settlement in the divorce.  It had been our rental house (and he got the modern 3 bed matrimonial home - poor him!!!! )

Then I bought the adjoining 2 acre paddock, also oddly shaped, with an even older dilapidated cottage on it.  I could only afford it by pulling down the dump and building a new 3 bedder to be rented out.  This gives me 3 acres with 2 houses on a bus route 5 miles from work.

Here we have heat not snow, and the soil was good but has also been flogged for 40 years. But we&#039;re getting there.  Have improved the old sheds and built a couple of new ones in strategic locations.  I can see lots of problems and fantasise about finding somewhere &#039;better&#039; but having spent some weeks looking I now know, there is no &#039;better&#039; out there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes we have been having these thoughts lately too.  I have my place almost by accident.  I got the house (a little old 2 bed workers cottage) and half acre odd-shaped paddock as the property settlement in the divorce.  It had been our rental house (and he got the modern 3 bed matrimonial home &#8211; poor him!!!! )</p>
<p>Then I bought the adjoining 2 acre paddock, also oddly shaped, with an even older dilapidated cottage on it.  I could only afford it by pulling down the dump and building a new 3 bedder to be rented out.  This gives me 3 acres with 2 houses on a bus route 5 miles from work.</p>
<p>Here we have heat not snow, and the soil was good but has also been flogged for 40 years. But we&#8217;re getting there.  Have improved the old sheds and built a couple of new ones in strategic locations.  I can see lots of problems and fantasise about finding somewhere &#8216;better&#8217; but having spent some weeks looking I now know, there is no &#8216;better&#8217; out there.</p>
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