Comments on: Getting Out of Debt – And the Debt System

By: Bryant Pieper

Bryant Pieper — Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:50:27 +0000

Wonderful content and definitely aids with learning the topic better.

By: Flash Website Builder

Flash Website Builder — Tue, 26 Jul 2011 00:52:14 +0000

Hmm it looks as if your site The Chatelaine's Keys » Blog Archive » Getting Out of Debt – And the Debt System consumed the initial comment (it was super lengthy we imagine I’ll simply sum it up things I wrote plus say, I really loving your site. We too are a driven blog writer yet I am very a new comer to everything. Do you have other tips regarding rookie bloggers! I truly really be thankful FYI how about Egypt wonderful tv news Rgds ! Flash Website Builder

By: Debt Collection Agenc

Debt Collection Agenc — Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:11:14 +0000

As Elizabeth Warren has pointed out about credit cards, signing a contract with an institution that may have hundreds of lawyers while the citizen has none might easily lead to terms which are egregious for the citizen. In one instance, I heard Warren describe in a interview that she had a class of 80 near-lawyers who couldn’t between them figure out the terms of a credit card contract.
The only way to avoid servitude or the functional effect of debtor’s prison is to allow people to discharge debts through bankruptcy. Prohibiting both student loans and credit card debt to be discharged through bankruptcy has created a second, lower class in society, the always indebted.
===============
rothallen

By: Claire

Claire — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 16:13:06 +0000

Kathie, the authors weren’t saying to not pay on a debt to an individual. They made it clear, to me at least, that they were talking about debts to large corporations. I recall Sharon saying in previous posts on her blog to make every effort to pay back debts to local businesses and to individuals if you can do so. I don’t think the situation you describe – owner financing of houses to other people, in lieu of bank mortgages – is a subject of this piece. In fact, individuals making loans to each other would, in my opinion, be one way to resist the economic tyranny of corporations. Some people occasionally need more cash than they have on hand, and some people have more cash than they really need. Getting those people together in a mutually satisfactory way would reduce the obscene power that corporations currently wield.

By: Orchid

Orchid — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 19:20:46 +0000

One of the premises of secured debt is that you can walk away from the debt by surrendering the security. All other forms of debt are “servitude” as there is no other way to get out of the debt. This is one reason people in Debtors Anonymous, DA, http://www.debtorsanonymous.org/
choose not to have any unsecured debt. (For those in any kind of financial trouble, DA can be a lifeline.) If you have a secured debt and still can’t walk away, you are enslaved as was any indentured servant who mortgaged their labor for passage to the colonies.
As Elizabeth Warren has pointed out about credit cards, signing a contract with an institution that may have hundreds of lawyers while the citizen has none might easily lead to terms which are egregious for the citizen. In one instance, I heard Warren describe in a interview that she had a class of 80 near-lawyers who couldn’t between them figure out the terms of a credit card contract.
The only way to avoid servitude or the functional effect of debtor’s prison is to allow people to discharge debts through bankruptcy. Prohibiting both student loans and credit card debt to be discharged through bankruptcy has created a second, lower class in society, the always indebted.

By: Kathie

Kathie — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 22:15:07 +0000

This post and the comments have kept me awake more than any other post here and that’s saying something because I always have some food for thought after leaving this space.

The idea that its okay to walk away simply because your house is worth less than you paid for it, bothers me so much. I have friends and neighbors who’ve provided owner financing to homes in good faith and with reasonable interest rates and to know that the buyers of their places could just simply walk away and in the process leave good people hurting and in financial turmoil is sad. The fact that those buyers could walk away and feel justified in doing so is heartbreaking.

Its not just heartbreaking because innocent people, not just corporations, get hurt; but also because of the larger ramifications this has on community for me personally. My husband is always saying that “you can’t trust anyone,” and I’m always trying to prove him wrong. Yet some of the very ideas put forth here prove his point. What does this idea do to the fabric of our communities? Communities that this blog espouses (and I believe) to be vital to our very survival in the days to come. How can we trust one another when we say its ok to just pick up our toys and go home when things aren’t going our way?

(Just to be clear, I’m not addressing situations that include some sort of trauma. I have compassion and understanding for illness, job loss, etc. not for wasteful and irresponsible spending.)

By: Links – Week 9, 2010 « Becoming a Good Human

Links – Week 9, 2010 « Becoming a Good Human — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 19:48:27 +0000

[...] Getting Out of Debt – And the Debt System Indebtedness pushes us into a form of servitude, and in extreme cases, can leave us imprisoned. Consider, for example, current rates of interest, usurious compared to what savers earn on their savings in the same banks that charge that interest. [...]

By: dewey

dewey — Thu, 04 Mar 2010 16:35:31 +0000

I’m with Kate rather than Jason on the property value issue. To me, our house is purely security for me and my family: a roof that no landlord can refuse to allow our beloved cat under, a back yard in which we can grow whatever food and medicinal plants we like. I have no expectation whatsoever that it will ever increase in value again, or that we will sell it for a profit one day. That being the case, even if we went underwater I would not voluntarily default.

OTOH, if I then lost my job and knew that I was going to be forced into foreclosure, I most certainly would not feel any moral obligation to keep paying the mortgage as long as I had “money in the bank” with which to do it. That last piece of savings with which you could make a couple of extra payments could also be first and last month’s rent and damage deposit on an apartment – as most landlords require, and without which you could end up homeless. You are under no obligation to leave your family destitute to minutely increase some bank’s profits.

By: Susan in NJ

Susan in NJ — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 21:13:53 +0000

Jason wrote:
“We have been raised like mindless drones that above all else the contract must be honored. It is a foolish notion imposed by those who benefit from contracts and contract law as a means to secure and acquire more wealth. Typically this benefits the aristocracy, it was afterall written into the constitution by them. It is the great and foolish notion our country was founded on….a protection of property and it’s owners, this is how we define freedom in its broadest sense. Only problem is folks we’re not all property owners, and this distinction becomes glaringly obvious during Depressions.”

Jason, what are you trying to say because what you wrote is far from accurate and misleading. It is not unconstitutional per se under the US constitution to default on a contract. The constitution does not require that a contract must be honored. Contract law is generally common law or statutory law, not consitutional law unless the state(government) is trying to take your (broadly defined) property away (5th and 14th amendments) or you are being denied contract rights because of an improper reason (5th and 14th amendments plus the civil rights statutes). What our founding fathers meant by “property” is still hotly debated, but generally it meant a lot more than real property and included your inherent right to your own body (if you were a white male), your clothes (which had a far greater value in colonial times than today) and household possessions, your wages, and your rights to any portion of the bundles of sticks that make up real property including the right to mortgage a parcel of land and rent it out and hold it as tenant.
Voting rights were originally tied to land ownership (and many other restrictions)

By: Kate@LivingTheFrugalLife

Kate@LivingTheFrugalLife — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 20:24:18 +0000

Jason, you seem to be pretty smart yourself. But you’re awfully certain of what I believe, what I think, what I know, what rationalizations I entertain, and what motivated me when purchasing my home. Neat trick, that. I’ve known my husband intimately for 15 years and wouldn’t presume to make the assumptions about his state of mind that you make about a complete stranger.

For the record, I don’t think the market value depreciation for my home is temporary. I expect the value to fall again, and significantly, though I have no guess on the timing. I don’t at all rule out the possibility that we could end up underwater, despite our current 40% equity in our home. You are correct that we plan to occupy this home long term.

Kind regards,
Kate